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I'm just curious.. although I haven't been playing WoW. Can Killer Please Justify whether Raiding has become compulsory in NO?
[by the way.. you can remove me, if you haven't already until i resume playing].
Effectively.. as i see it, regardless of his attitude (which was less than aimiable). Shadowfang was "Kicked" for refusing to go to ZG.

And, in fact he only refused to go after waiting for an hour and getting fed up.

On the other hand, As Mulac indicated, shadowfang has less than a pristine record, and effectively.. his past record has caused something that would be overlooked (perhaps with annoyance).

The other thing that is important to note ... thats the 2nd priest NO has lost.. So Mulac wasn't kicking him because he felt like it.

I've seen many situations were a priest wasn't kicked, but if it was a more common class they would have been kicked without a second thought

Doesn't matter. I was kicked for whatever reason. I just don't want you other NO-members to think, I did it to be mean or screw up the whole ZG. I just got fed up waiting and wanted to play on my alt instead Some people in this order, should learn how to respect other people and their decision. Its me who pays my wow-bill. I should be able to chose to not to participate in a guild-raid and Not be kicked for it.

I should be able to chose to not to participate in a guild-raid and Not be kicked for it.

That's the whole point of this discussion. If that's what lead to you being kicked, then that's bang out of order. I'm still not clear about why you were kicked. Let me recap.

You were demoted for not rejoing? I find that a bit harsh but fair enough, I can live with that.

You were then kicked for giving lip in guild chat? If so, then I find that a bit harsh but I have done the same - it's never nice having a flame war in guild chat. I'd like to know if you were provoked by other people in NO though, as if you were, then you're quite right to give back as good as you get.

The way this all reads atm makes me want to leave NO as I'm ashamed to be associated with it atm.

amigafan2003 wrote:

I should be able to chose to not to participate in a guild-raid and Not be kicked for it.

That's the whole point of this discussion. If that's what lead to you being kicked, then that's bang out of order. I'm still not clear about why you were kicked. Let me recap.

You were demoted for not rejoing? I find that a bit harsh but fair enough, I can live with that.

You were then kicked for giving lip in guild chat? If so, then I find that a bit harsh but I have done the same - it's never nice having a flame war in guild chat. I'd like to know if you were provoked by other people in NO though, as if you were, then you're quite right to give back as good as you get.

The way this all reads atm makes me want to leave NO as I'm ashamed to be associated with it atm.

I got first demoted to trail. The Mulac said something like "You are lucky you arent getting kicked" and i replied "if you want to kick me, kick me." and then i got kicked. And all my alts. And 3mins later, my NO-forum rights got removed. Even my NW-forum rights.

Mulac just replied in the game that he has all officers on his side, and this "thead"/debate wont last much longer.

Before this thread will be locked, I just want to say: Thanks for a nice time, I really do Nemetos Order is a cool guild (sometimes. this not being one tho). Good luck and have fun in MC and with the NW-merge See ya guys out there!

"thead"/debate wont last much longer.

Really. If it gets locked I'm walking as it hasn't been resolved and I've only seen Mulac as an officer reply here.

The Mulac said something like "You are lucky you arent getting kicked"

That a load of bull! Saying you're lucky not to get kicked for NOT joining a raid. I'd have probably responded as you did.

The quotes might be incorrect in some way. Ive asked Mulac to doublecheck it.

I never said "you're lucky you aren't getting kicked" at all.

amigafan - wait before passing judgement huh?

Wait for what - this post has been open since half seven.

Shadowfang has been a disruptive, insolent and frankly obnoxious member of Nemetos for far too long. He was kicked, for a seemingly unfair reason, he dresses the situation as if the only reason he was kicked might be that he exercised his right to say no. Don't be fooled by these self affirming and indeed self-righteous attempts to justify his obstinate and disagreeable attitude to social behaviour norms.
You ask is it right he was kicked for not joining a raid? No, but for the general mental health and happiness of the guild its a damned good job he's gone. If a member acts like an imbecile, what does it matter what reason was given for kicking him?

Lets have a look at what happened:
1 Shadow joins raid, gives it 30 mins and starts giving his ultimatum (with additional live countdown from the 17 minute stage :O)
2 One hour passes, the entire guild waits on and Shadow leaves (as was threatened)
3 Guild want to move on - calls Shadow back.
4 Shadow point blank refuses to help. His ulitmatum was given and now he has to discipline the guild who did not provide what he wanted.

If the guy had to go out, or go to bed I could credit this rediculous debate with some dignity. The fact is he threw his dolly out of the pram and punished the entire raid for not doing as he directed (i.e provide the raid at the appointed time). This isntead of being a human rights abuse issue as it has been made into is about Shadow not getting his own way. That is why he deserves to be kicked, even without taking his past indiscretions into account.

I back Mulac in this 100% Shadowfang, as was discussed amongst the officers before this debate was on thin ice with the guild. This attrocious drama kicked up tonight was the straw that broke the camels back.

Shadowfang - go peacefully and be forgotten.

Thank you. That was a very eloquoent post and informs me of the situation perfectly and as it comes from another officer (I do trust Mulac but as he was the one who kicked Shadow, it needed a 2nd corroborator) it oozes with credibility. It's now prefectly clear why Shadow was kicked and the officers have my full support.

Shadow, best of luck for the future, I hope you find a guild suited to you.

Let's get the matter of what happened tonight sorted out here.

We can't do Zul'Gurub without a certain number of people. We all have to wait for people to get online so we can make a start. It's quite rich of shadowfang to be giving ultimatums considering he himself is often late. That aside, he abandons the guild raid potentially ruining the night for the other 15 or so guild members waiting to start. When we do have enough people to start we ask shadowfang to change character, he refuses saying he is playing his alt now. However this refusal comes in the same way as everything does with shadowfang, though guild spam and the starting of arguements with everyone.

I decide I've had enough, he was demoted a few days ago by Grumph for his behaviour so I demote him further, to the rank of trial. He dares/challenges me to kick him so I decide to end it once and for all, backed by Aczeren and now by numerous other guild members, officers and the guild leader himself.

Before you went on your alt shadowfang I said that we should start moving to ZG and start clearing, we could have taken out the first boss. But isnt the main reason why you got kicked, you have been a pain in the ass for most of the members of the guild, like when Nahima joined and you immidiatly started to accuse her for talking crap about NO in Elwyn Forest and that didnt make a very good first impression. Also a numerous people have put you on their ignore list. Im backing Mulac 100% on the kicking of you, I told him to do it aswell.

So good luck solving the problems of the world

Hi and sorry I replied so late but had problems with my pc, that's also the reason that I was late for ZG, my apologies.
I wasnt there while this happend but I support my officers 100% in whatever actions they take. Nemetos officers are respected people in the tngc that dont kick people out of the guild without good reasons. Reasons for shadowfangs kick have been well put by both drfennris and mulac and I think the same way.
Shadowfang I'll cya around.

Killer...

amigafan2003 wrote:Wait for what - this post has been open since half seven.

We've been in a Z'G raid since half six. Sorry for not swooping in sooner.

Three points to make clear, so that all members know where they stand:-

(a) Raiding is not a requirement for NO membership. It is recommended, since it is such a large part of end-game PvE play, but no-one is forced to commit to anything. On the other hand, committing to a raid and then just giving up an hour in has always been frowned upon.

(b) This isn't the first time Shadowfang has had a go at an officer for doing an officer's duty. We hadn't even finished discussing what to do about the last set of logs when this happened, which may well have influenced the action taken.

(c) Any ultimatum with "or I'll leave the guild" results in a kick 99% of the time. We do not negotiate with hostage-takers.

Fennris wrote:Shadowfang has been a disruptive, insolent and frankly obnoxious member of Nemetos for far too long. He was kicked, for a seemingly unfair reason, he dresses the situation as if the only reason he was kicked might be that he exercised his right to say no. Don't be fooled by these self affirming and indeed self-righteous attempts to justify his obstinate and disagreeable attitude to social behaviour norms.
You ask is it right he was kicked for not joining a raid? No, but for the general mental health and happiness of the guild its a damned good job he's gone. If a member acts like an imbecile, what does it matter what reason was given for kicking him?

Lets have a look at what happened:
1 Shadow joins raid, gives it 30 mins and starts giving his ultimatum (with additional live countdown from the 17 minute stage :O)
2 One hour passes, the entire guild waits on and Shadow leaves (as was threatened)
3 Guild want to move on - calls Shadow back.
4 Shadow point blank refuses to help. His ulitmatum was given and now he has to discipline the guild who did not provide what he wanted.

If the guy had to go out, or go to bed I could credit this rediculous debate with some dignity. The fact is he threw his dolly out of the pram and punished the entire raid for not doing as he directed (i.e provide the raid at the appointed time). This isntead of being a human rights abuse issue as it has been made into is about Shadow not getting his own way. That is why he deserves to be kicked, even without taking his past indiscretions into account.

I back Mulac in this 100% Shadowfang, as was discussed amongst the officers before this debate was on thin ice with the guild. This attrocious drama kicked up tonight was the straw that broke the camels back.

Shadowfang - go peacefully and be forgotten.

Right. Ok, doc. Your totally off, once again. Just as you blame Feeling for leaving us and how "it ruins for all of us" he left, you are doing the exactly same thing with me. Funny, isnt it? First you liked Feeling, but as soon as he said he was gonna leave you "lost all respect" to him. It just clarifies what kind of person you really are.

You may even call me stuff like an "imbecile", or (my favourite) "attention starved drama queen". I have no clue why, but I just assume it makes you feel better. Personally, ive grown out of namecalling and stuff like that, I just think its lame and childess. Just shows your age.

About what happend today, it was like all other days. The officers plan a date, and puts a time: 18:30. But when does the ZG-raid start? 1 h and 18 after the announced time. And you guys think its unreasonable i get fed up waiting (once again) and want to play with my alt instead of waiting???

I even was nice and said, ill give it an hour and i even counted down (because i knew something like this would happen. members would get pissed off, bc i got bored and left and everyone blames me. good work officers tho! You guys are great. Instead of backing me up and saying you understand, Mulac gets ichy fingers and kicks me imme.). After an hour, i started to play with my alt and 2 seconds later i hear stuff like "where is shadowfang", "wtf", and all kind of crap. Even tho I said, I would leave if we didnt get enought people.

As ive said many times now, I did warn you guys and hour before. I even gave live countdown. And now I get this kind of crap from officers?

And how the hell could I ruin it for all of you, when you guys constantly said it was ok and you already had a replacement priest? You guys even said I wasn't needed.

And as I said before, I dont blame anyone of you. I just fed up and wanted to play with Silverdragon. Im not gonna wait the entire evening, so we can get enough ppl for ZG. A waited an hour for more members. Give me one reason why I should wait more than an hour than the announced starting time? How long should you wait, so you are safe from kicks? Does that seem fair? Just because im in this guild, doesnt mean I can spend all my free time on waiting on a lvl 60. Where did I even sign up for the raid??? Are you online, you have to do ZG???

My attention wasn't to discipline the guild, for heaven sake. This is a screwed up guild, if you arent allowed to anything else than wait, if you have a lvl 60. But after an hour, I feelt more like playing with my alt than my priest. And you guys blame me? Who are you to decide what characters I am allowed to play and when? I would understand you, If it was during a raid. But we warent even close.

Im really tired of this disturbed debate. Some officers here are really wacked. If you guys think this is valid reason to be kicked, so be it. If not, tell the damn officers, make them grow up. Im more laughing at this than being sad. Im gonna wake up tomorrow knowing Nemetos Order was in the past, and I know their officers have much to learn, tbh. Todays sad part is, you guys couldnt just respect my decision about leaving in an hour, if i feelt we didnt get enought ppl from the announced time and one hour forward. But it doesnt matter. If i was on silverdragon the entire time, i would have been kicked anyway because i would "ruin" for everyone else but not playing with my priest. Either way, NO is forcing you to pick what character to play and when.

Ill miss almost everyone of you. Some im happy ill never see again. I honestly dont care any more, its just a game and this is just another guild. Its pointless to argue in these situations, even tho you might feel the other side is totallly wrong. Its your guild, your rules - how far wacked they are. Its the members in the guild that counts.

Cya ppl and Good luck with the merge!